date: Thu Jul 23 16:29:55 2009 from: Phil Jones subject: Re: FW: McIntyre- FOI to: "Thorne, Peter (Climate Research)" Peter, Thanks. We've had a request from Montford as well. What we're sending him is the original letters we have from Met Services. I gave you and Marion some of these when I was down in June. I've since found a couple more. Also pointing to this page [1]http://badc.nerc.ac.uk/data/surface/met-nerc_agreement.html which means I can't pass on any UK data ! What we're looking into as a possibility is summarised below by our FOI person. I'm still thinking about this. We're likely to send a response to McIntyre tomorrow about a request for data I sent to a post doc working for Peter Webster. Peter said he'd had no difficulty getting data from CRU. It was only some tropical station. McIntyre has no idea what data it was. He is just asking for a copy of the email and attachment that I sent between Jan 1 and June 30, 2009! What we've signed with you is an agreement that David may have a copy of. This was about joint work and publications. Off home now - back in Monday. Cheers Phil Phil, as your concern is the publication of the requested information, I wonder if a possible alternative is to release it but place conditions on it's use. This will ONLY work if UEA has some rights in the data itself or in the database. 'Copyright' in the contents of a database would require some personal creative input by ourselves to the data or database that would render it different from preceding external versions and 'original'. However, even if the contents aren't 'original', there is a 'database right' where the contents of the database are assembled as the result of substantial investment in obtaining, verifying, or presenting it's contents. It is the framework, not the contents, that attracts the rights. These rights exist for 15 years from the completion of the database BUT any substantial change to contents will 'renew' the database rights for another 15 years. The owner of database rights has the right to prevent the extraction or reuse of all or a substantial portion of the database. There is 'fair dealing' in database rights to the extent that anyone has a right to extract & reuse an insubstantial portion of the database (not really defined in law but it's very small) for any purpose, or where the portion is substantial, extract and use data for non-commercial research or private study. What can't be done is re-issuing this information to the public under a different guise. The upshot of all of this is that, if we have a 'database right' in this information, then we can release it BUT insist on our exclusive right to re-use the information - BUT the issue is actually 'enforcing' those rights more difficult in practice than in law or theory. Just thought I would proffer this as an option in place of the refusal and the inevitable appeal. Cheers, Dave At 15:46 23/07/2009, you wrote: FYI -- Peter Thorne, Climate Research scientist Met Office Hadley Centre, FitzRoy Road, Exeter, EX1 3PB. tel. +44 1392 886552 fax. +44 1392 885681 [2]http://www.hadobs.org ______________________________________________ From: Archer, Marion Sent: 23 July 2009 13:13 To: Thorne, Peter (Climate Research) Cc: Stott, Peter Subject: RE: McIntyre- FOI Peter I attach a copy of the letter going out to Mr McIntyre today. Regards Marion <> Marion Archer FOI/Data Protection Manager Met Office Alexandria 1 Fitzroy Road Exeter Devon EX1 3PB United Kingdom Direct Tel: +44(0)1392 884036 Fax 0870 900 5050 email: marion.archer@metoffice.gov.uk [3]http://www.metoffice.gov.uk See our guide to climate change at [4]http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/climatechange/guide/ _____________________________________________ From: Thorne, Peter (Climate Research) Sent: 23 July 2009 10:16 To: Archer, Marion; Stott, Peter; Mayhew, Stuart Subject: RE: Montford - FOI Marion, we have nothing officially in writing. Simon Tett was the lead and although he had emails we believe at the time he has since left and his account has been scrubbed. Most of the arrangement was done orally so there is very little written correspondence on the matter even if we could retrieve previous emails (which I doubt). Best I have is the following from Simon: "I've got some of my old met office email -- back to early 2004. We are talking about error models then so I think discussions about station level records would have taken place in 2003. My recall is that we agreed with Phil that the gridded product was jointly owned and that he owned the station level records. The web site ([5]http://hadobs.metoffice.com/crutem3/data/station_updates/) seems to reflect this view. I think when I left the met office I deleted all my email prior to 2004 so can't find a record of the email. It may well be associated with the sub-contract to CRU to work on CRUTEM3 which I think was done in 2002/2003." There may be something in the contract for the HadCRUT3 work that we set up with UEA back in 2001/2. Stuart can probably dig that out and let me have a look. -- Peter Thorne, Climate Research scientist Met Office Hadley Centre, FitzRoy Road, Exeter, EX1 3PB. tel. +44 1392 886552 fax. +44 1392 885681 [6]http://www.hadobs.org _____________________________________________ From: Archer, Marion Sent: 23 July 2009 09:02 To: Stott, Peter Cc: Thorne, Peter (Climate Research) Subject: RE: Montford - FOI Sorry I didn't clarify the point with either of you. If Peter T could come up with something, liaising with Peter S that would be good. Peter T if you want to meet just let me know. Regards Marion Marion Archer FOI/Data Protection Manager Met Office Alexandria 1 Fitzroy Road Exeter Devon EX1 3PB United Kingdom Direct Tel: +44(0)1392 884036 Fax 0870 900 5050 email: marion.archer@metoffice.gov.uk [7]http://www.metoffice.gov.uk See our guide to climate change at [8]http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/climatechange/guide/ _____________________________________________ From: Stott, Peter Sent: 23 July 2009 08:54 To: Archer, Marion; Thorne, Peter (Climate Research) Subject: RE: Montford - FOI I assume Peter Thorne is the lead on this, Peter Dr. Peter Stott Head, Climate Monitoring and Attribution, Met Office Hadley Centre, Fitzroy Road, Exeter. EX1 3PB, UK Tel +44(0)1392 886646 Fax +44(0)1392885681 Email: peter.stott@metoffice.gov.uk [9]http://www.metoffice.gov.uk _____________________________________________ From: Archer, Marion Sent: 23 July 2009 08:50 To: Stott, Peter; Thorne, Peter (Climate Research) Subject: Montford - FOI Importance: High Peter I have received the following FOI. It is the second request about CRUTEM from Mr Montford. He originall asked for the names of persons who restricted the release of the data. I attach a copy of our response. I understand there is nothing in writing about confirming that we cannot release this data and and I would appreciate if you could put a short response together for me, that I can send to Mr Montford. (Request below) << File: 0003840 Montford 1.pdf >> Dear Sir or Madam, Further to my recent enquiry regarding CRUTEM station data, firstly thank-you for your prompt reply. Could you please send me a copy of the agreement/letter with Dr Jones in which he makes these restrictions on redistribution of the data. Yours faithfully, Andrew Montford Marion Archer FOI/Data Protection Manager Met Office Alexandria 1 Fitzroy Road Exeter Devon EX1 3PB United Kingdom Direct Tel: +44(0)1392 884036 Fax 0870 900 5050 email: marion.archer@metoffice.gov.uk [10]http://www.metoffice.gov.uk See our guide to climate change at [11]http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/climatechange/guide/ Prof. Phil Jones Climatic Research Unit Telephone +44 (0) 1603 592090 School of Environmental Sciences Fax +44 (0) 1603 507784 University of East Anglia Norwich Email p.jones@uea.ac.uk NR4 7TJ UK ----------------------------------------------------------------------------