cc: "Mcgarvie Michael Mr \(ACAD\)" date: Wed, 13 May 2009 15:36:27 +0100 from: "Palmer Dave Mr \(LIB\)" subject: RE: RE: Freedom of Information Request to: "Jones Philip Prof \(ENV\)" Gents, Just got off the phone with Marion Archer. It appears that they will be dealing with their request under EIR. There are 2 key issues for them: (1) the terms under which Phil supplied this information to them (and of course any evidence of such terms) - I believe John Kennedy will be leading on this for them, and (2) the public interest test required regarding release. In regards the latter, the terms under which Phil received this information could be critical (and any evidence thereof). The question is the public interest in disclosure v. the public interest in non-disclosure. The existence of contracts. terms or agreements under which we received the data (and then passed it on to Hadley) would be proof a some public interest in non-disclosure (sanctity of contracts, free exchange of scientific information etc...). The request was received by Hadley this week so we are looking at an early June deadline. If we do not wish this information/data to be released, it is in our interest to bolster the public interest argument in favour of non-disclosure to the greatest extent possible. Phil - any further information available on what terms were imposed on you when you received and subsequently passed on this data? Cheers, Dave ______________________________________________________________________________________ From: Phil Jones [mailto:p.jones@uea.ac.uk] Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2009 3:22 PM To: Palmer Dave Mr (LIB) Cc: Mcgarvie Michael Mr (ACAD) Subject: RE: RE: Freedom of Information Request Dave, Thanks! Apologies for being your best customer! Phil At 15:17 13/05/2009, Palmer Dave Mr \(LIB\) wrote: Phil, Thanks for passing all this correspondence to me. A few comments: Hadley is under an obligation to respond to the FOIA request of Mr. McIntyre and whether they release the requested data or not is completely in their hands. However, I would argue that the EIR is the legislation under which they need to consider this information. If that is the route that they go, Regulation 12(5)(f) is the salient one: 12. - (1) Subject to paragraphs (2), (3) and (9), a public authority may refuse to disclose environmental information requested if - (a) an exception to disclosure applies under paragraphs (4) or (5); and (b) in all the circumstances of the case, the public interest in maintaining the exception outweighs the public interest in disclosing the information. (5) For the purposes of paragraph (1)(a), a public authority may refuse to disclose information to the extent that its disclosure would adversely affect - (f) the interests of the person who provided the information where that person - (i) was not under, and could not have been put under, any legal obligation to supply it to that or any other public authority; (ii) did not supply it in circumstances such that that or any other public authority is entitled apart from these Regulations to disclose it; and (iii) has not consented to its disclosure; or Please note - there is a public interest test here that has to be addressed by Hadley as well. Bottom line - it is Hadley's call on releasing the information - all we can do is register our concern over the release of the information. We didn't actually deny Mr. McIntyre the information in 2007 - we stated we didn't actually HAVE what he was requesting. The actual text of my letter of 19 April 2007 states: "In your email of 17 April 2007, you re-iterated your request from your email of 12 March 2007, to see "B) identification ... of the stations used in the gridded network which was used as a comparandum in this study" I have been in conversation with Dr. Jones and have been advised that, in fact, we are unable to answer (B) as we do not have a copy of the station data as we had it in 1990. The station database has evolved since that time and CRU was not able to keep versions of it as stations were added, amended and deleted. This was a consequence of a lack of data storage comparable to what we have at our disposal currently. I have been advised that the best equivalent data available is within the current version of CRUTEM3(v) or CRUTEM2(v). The latter is still available on the CRU web site, though not updated beyond 2005. These latest versions are likely different from what was used in 1990. Australia and China have both released more data since then - it is likely that much of this was not digitized in 1990. Dr. Jones acknowledges that the grid resolution is now different, but this is again due to greater disk storage available. The details of our updating of the raw station data is discussed in the following article: Jones, P.D. and Moberg, A., 2003: Hemispheric and large-scale surface air temperature variations: An extensive revision and an update to 2001. J. Climate 16, 206-223. This is, in effect, our final attempt to resolve this matter informally. If this response is not to your satisfaction, I will initiate the second stage of our internal complaint process and will advise you of progress and outcome as appropriate." There was no response to this letter. For your information, I have attached to this memo the initial request, our answer, the appeal & our initial and subsequent appeal response. I think I will need to have a quick chat with Marion Archer at Hadley to see what approach they are taking on this... Cheers, Dave _______________________________________________________________________________ From: Phil Jones [[1] mailto:p.jones@uea.ac.uk] Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2009 12:48 PM To: Palmer Dave Mr (LIB) Cc: Mcgarvie Michael Mr (ACAD) Subject: Fwd: RE: Freedom of Information Request Dave, Nothing came over night. This email came a few minutes ago. It also includes my response - just to a few colleagues at the Hadley Centre. I've not sent anything to their FOI people, but you can see their names (if you didn't know them already) further down. The crux of the issue is their statement on their web site. [2]http://hadobs.metoffice.com/indicators/index.html within this page is this piece of text. Q. Where can I get the raw observations? A. The raw sea-surface temperature observations used to create [3]HadSST2 are taken from ICOADS (International Comprehensive Ocean Atmosphere Data Set). These can be found at [4]http://icoads.noaa.gov/. To obtain the archive of raw land surface temperature observations used to create [5]CRUTEM3, you will need to contact Phil Jones at the Climate Research Unit at the University of East Anglia. Recently archived station reports used to update CRUTEM3 and HadCRUT3 are available from the CRUTEM3 [6]data download page. So they say people need to contact me, but they seem to want to release the data anyway. They are probably going through the processes they have to. Is it worth me or you contacting their FOI person (Marion Archer). If they release the data it would seem to make us look very silly. As an aside, I do get contacted and I do send some stations to some people - mainly students from developing countries who are here doing PhDs in the UK and Europe. Cheers Phil Date: Wed, 13 May 2009 12:24:25 +0100 To: "peter.thorne" , "Parker, David" From: Phil Jones Subject: RE: Freedom of Information Request Cc: "Kennedy, John" , "Brohan, Philip" , Simon Tett , "Livingston, Linda" Dear All, There are several issues you should be aware of: 1. UEA has denied access to the data to McIntyre (and at least two others in the past) - in 2007. One of the three appealed and that appeal was rejected. We would look stupid if you released the data now. I can put your FOI person in touch with the one at UEA. I think they already know each other! We put up this page at the time [7]http://www.cru.uea.ac.uk/cru/data/landstations/ So they have a list of which stations are used. 2. I have signed agreements with some Met Services (European ones) in the 1990s that I would not pass on their data to third parties. The data could be used in the gridding though and gridded products made available. I never kept a list of which stations these were though, as I never thought such problems would arise. 3. Work on the land station data has been funded by the US Dept of Energy, and I have their agreement that the data needn't be passed on. I got this in 2007. 4. You web site says that anyone requesting the data should apply to me, so tell him that's what they should do. I think you should remove this sentence, by the way. It is this that has opened up the issue again. 5. The data aren't yours to release! Maybe there is no formal IPR agreement, but there is an implicit one. 6. We've altered the version that you have anyway. We're also in the process of doing more of this. 7. You'd need to waste your time combining the two parts of the data and removing the stations that don't get used. Cheers Phil At 11:53 13/05/2009, peter.thorne wrote: Sorry. I should also have copied Phil in my previous. Apologies for filling inboxes. On Wed, 2009-05-13 at 11:50 +0100, Parker, David wrote: > Peter > > Thanks for responding to this. I have looked in my "Collaboration with > CRU" folder but found nothing that specifically addresses IPR of data. > > David > > David Parker, Climate Research scientist > Met Office Hadley Centre FitzRoy Road Exeter Devon EX1 3PB United > Kingdom > Tel: +44 (0)1392 886649 Fax: +44 (0)1392 885681 > Email: david.parker@metoffice.gov.uk > Website: [8]www.metoffice.gov.uk > > See our guide to climate change at > [9]http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/climatechange/guide/ > -----Original Message----- > From: Thorne, Peter (Climate Research) > Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2009 11:43 AM > To: Kennedy, John > Cc: Brohan, Philip; Parker, David; Simon Tett; Livingston, Linda > Subject: RE: Freedom of Information Request > > Yes, we do. I guess Linda will know where it is. Simon Tett undertook > it. cc'ing Simon and Linda here to provide direction to necessary > paperwork. > > On Wed, 2009-05-13 at 10:54 +0100, Kennedy, John wrote: > > Dear all, > > > > The FOI request from Mr McIntyre has arrived. Do we have a formal > > agreement with Phil Jones that says what we can and can't do with his > > data? > > > > John > > > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > From: Archer, Marion > > Sent: 13 May 2009 10:32 > > To: Carroll, Fiona; Kennedy, John > > Cc: Mathews, Stuart (Legal) > > Subject: RE: Freedom of Information Request > > > > > > > > Hi Fiona/John > > > > Thank you for your emails. As Mr McIntyre has raised this request > > for information and the Met Office hold the information for whatever > > reason, we still need to consider releasing it. We will need to do a > > public interest test on the pros and cons for release, for which I > > will need your input. > > > > Can you let me know why we are unable to release the information? > > Was the information given in confidence to the Met Office? Do you > > have any documentation from Phil Jones regarding this? We need to > > show we are considering both sides of the argument for release as Mr > > McIntyre may go to the Information Commissioner and if we cannot show > > a fair and open public interest test has been undertaken, they may > > find in his favour. > > > > If you wish to meet to discuss, please let me know. > > > > Regards > > > > Marion > > > > Marion Archer > > FOI/Data Protection Manager > > Met Office Alexandria 1 > > Fitzroy Road Exeter Devon EX1 3PB United Kingdom > > Direct Tel: +44(0)1392 884036 Fax 0870 900 5050 > > email: marion.archer@metoffice.gov.uk > > [10]http://www.metoffice.gov.uk > > > > See our guide to climate change at > > [11]http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/climatechange/guide/ > > > > > > > > > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > From: Carroll, Fiona > > Sent: 12 May 2009 16:46 > > To: Archer, Marion > > Subject: RE: Freedom of Information Request > > > > > > > > Dear Marion, > > The customer has already been in touch with John Kennedy who explained > > to him that the data set requested does not belong to the Met Office, > > and therefore we do not have permission to pass it on. The data set is > > held by Phil Jones at the University of East Anglia, and the customer > > should make a direct request to him. Below is John's response to the > > original request. > > Fiona > > > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > From: Kennedy, John > > Sent: 12 May 2009 16:00 > > To: Carroll, Fiona > > Subject: RE: Freedom of Information Request > > > > > > Fiona, > > > > I wondered when this would arrive. Mr McIntyre, a noted climate > > sceptic, is documenting all of this on his blog: > > > > [12]http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=5962 > > > > The "archive of raw land surface temperature observations used to > > create CRUTEM3" is not ours to give away. The basic archive of > > observations was put together by Phil Jones at the Climatic Research > > Unit at the University of East Anglia. We collaborate with Phil so he > > sent us the data with the proviso (as I understand it) that we should > > only use it to create the gridded data set CRUTEM3. We are not to pass > > it on to other people. It says as much on the web page that Stephen > > McIntyre refers to. > > > > [13]http://hadobs.metoffice.com/indicators/index.html > > > > What we can provide are the data that we gather and quality control on > > a monthly basis. > > > > [14]http://hadobs.metoffice.com/crutem3/data/station_updates/ > > > > Stephen McIntyre has already contacted me by email asking for the data > > that he is now pursuing with this FOI request. I told him that we > > couldn't give him the full archive and that he should contact its > > owner, Phil Jones. I also told him where to find the data he could > > have. This is what I said: > > > > Dear Stephen McIntyre, > > > > Thank you for your interest in our datasets. > > > > Some of the data is available from the website. Each month we receive > > CLIMAT reports at the Met Office, which are quality controlled, and > > used > > to update the gridded CRUTEM3 dataset. The quality controlled CLIMAT > > station data for recent years can be found here: > > > > [15]http://hadobs.metoffice.com/crutem3/data/station_updates/ > > > > However, this is not all the station data used in CRUTEM3. Most of the > > station data was given to us by Phil Jones under conditions that don't > > allow us to redistribute it. If you want the full archive, you will > > have > > to contact him. > > > > Best regards, > > > > John > > > > John > > > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > From: Carroll, Fiona > > Sent: 12 May 2009 15:27 > > To: Kennedy, John > > Cc: Archer, Marion > > Subject: FW: Freedom of Information Request > > > > > > > > John, > > Please could you assist marion with this FOI request. > > Many thanks. > > Fiona > > > > > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > From: Marion Archer [ [16]mailto:enquiries@metoffice.gov.uk] > > Sent: 12 May 2009 14:47 > > To: Carroll, Fiona > > Subject: FWD: Freedom of Information Request > > > > > > Fiona > > > > Please see email below and can you let me know who the best person > > would be to send it to please. > > > > Regards > > > > Marion > > > > > > > > > > > > ----------------------- Forwarded Message ----------------------- > > > > From: Steve McIntyre > > To: "" > > Date: Mon, 11 May 2009 16:27:00 +0100 > > Subject: Freedom of Information Request > > > > Dear Sirs, > > I request the "archive of raw land surface temperature observations > > used to create CRUTEM3" as held by the Hadley Center (referred to on > > your webpage [17]http://hadobs.metoffice.com/indicators/index.html ) under > > the FOI Act or other applicable legislation. > > > > Thank you for your attention, Stephen McIntyre -- Peter Thorne Climate Research Scientist Met Office Hadley Centre, FitzRoy Road, Exeter, EX1 3PB tel. +44 1392 886552 fax +44 1392 885681 [18]www.metoffice.gov.uk/hadobs Prof. Phil Jones Climatic Research Unit Telephone +44 (0) 1603 592090 School of Environmental Sciences Fax +44 (0) 1603 507784 University of East Anglia Norwich Email p.jones@uea.ac.uk NR4 7TJ UK ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Prof. Phil Jones Climatic Research Unit Telephone +44 (0) 1603 592090 School of Environmental Sciences Fax +44 (0) 1603 507784 University of East Anglia Norwich Email p.jones@uea.ac.uk NR4 7TJ UK ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Prof. Phil Jones Climatic Research Unit Telephone +44 (0) 1603 592090 School of Environmental Sciences Fax +44 (0) 1603 507784 University of East Anglia Norwich Email p.jones@uea.ac.uk NR4 7TJ UK ----------------------------------------------------------------------------