cc: "Colam-French Jonathan Mr (ISD)" date: Tue, 8 Sep 2009 17:10:02 +0100 from: "Palmer Dave Mr (LIB)" subject: RE: FW: Environmental Information Regulations request (FOI_09-44; to: "Jones Philip Prof (ENV)" , "Mcgarvie Michael Mr (ACAD)" Phil, Thanks for the very prompt and complete response. While I certainly don't think we will be passing on all this information to Mr. McIntyre, I suspect we may abbreviate it in some way for use in response to Mr. McIntyre's appeal, if to only illustrate that our position is not internally inconsistent. The degree to which we engage with Mr. McIntyre will I'm sure be a topic of conversation between JCF and myself tomorrow... Cheers, Dave ______________________________________________________________________________________ From: Phil Jones [mailto:p.jones@uea.ac.uk] Sent: Tuesday, September 08, 2009 4:51 PM To: Palmer Dave Mr (LIB); Mcgarvie Michael Mr (ACAD) Cc: Colam-French Jonathan Mr (ISD) Subject: Re: FW: Environmental Information Regulations request (FOI_09-44; EIR_09-03) - Appeal initial response Dave, I don't recall all the facts from that long ago. There is or was a version on a US Dept of Energy website from about 1990. This was a contract requirement at the time. Much extra data has been added since then, and this is what the restrictions refer to from the mid-to-late 1990s. The 1996 version (cruwlda2) wasn't a complete version and was something we developed for a number of people in EU projects to use. We made these available to people on these projects via our ftp site, as it was easier to do this than sending disks at that time (email attachments were smaller then). I don't have a copy of that file and I know it wouldn't have had the additional US and Canadian data. The file newcrustnsall.dat was put there for the Met Office to pick up. We should have deleted it, but didn't. Despite its name, I'm not sure that it is ALL the stations. I just checked and it doesn't have the additional US and Canadian data. So if has this version it isn't the version that produced Jones and Moberg (2003). Neither of these datasets were explained in the data file. There are lots of codes with the data and I used to send the details of these codes in emails to people on the projects and the Met Office. Since 2003, we've done a lot more work on the data. We removed a lot of duplicates that had got into the dataset between the late 1990s and 2003 and also added a lot more data in. We've also modified the codes in the last few years to try and make updating easier. There are no contradictions in your present refusal. The file newcrustnsall.dat is the one that has the data that we weren't supposed to pass on. An issue is that there aren't just versions in 1990, in 1996, in 2003 and now. The dataset gets updated every month and every 4-6 months we add some more back data in as we get time. Adding in data is not a trivial task, as we have to assess whether it is OK and we have to do checks as to whether we already have the data. So even when we get permission to post the data, it will still change from month to month, just like the gridded version changes. Cheers Phil At 15:24 08/09/2009, Palmer Dave Mr (LIB) wrote: Phil, This has already been sent to Jonathan by Jane Baker (I believe) and I anticipate that we will be moving into the 'next phase' of our appeals process involving JCF this week or next. As a starter, could you verify/comment on the 'facts' as reported by Mr. McIntyre? Was an earlier version of the data sent to him 2002? If so, what was it - raw station data or gridded data? Also - has a set of the raw station data been sent to USDoE? I am meeting JCF tomorrow and would expect to discuss this matter.... Cheers, Dave ___________________________________________________________________________________ From: Steve McIntyre [[1] mailto:stephen.mcintyre@utoronto.ca] Sent: Wednesday, September 02, 2009 9:14 PM To: Palmer Dave Mr (LIB) Subject: RE: Environmental Information Regulations request (FOI_09-44; EIR_09-03) - Appeal initial response Dear Mr Palmer, Thank you for your letter of August 13, 2009. I have been away on holidays for two weeks and apologize for the delay in replying to your letter. I am in possession of three earlier versions of the CRU station data. The 1990 version has been posted at a US Department of Energy website for many years. In September 2002, I requested a copy of this data from Dr Jones. He sent me a 1996 version (cruwlda2) - a version that was also posted at the CRU website until recently - and indicated that the then revised version would posted up when Jones and Moberg (2003) was published, which, according to the date-stamps at your FTP site was done in Feb 2003, as Dr Jones had undertaken to do (the data set newcrustnsall recently removed from your public directory). Notwithstanding this, when Warwick Hughes and Willis Eschenbach requested station data, for some reason, CRU failed to provide then with this information. As you noted in your letter, following your recent refusal to provide station data to me, I examined the CRU FTP site and determined that the newcrustnsall was the version of the station data for Jones and Moberg 2003 that Dr Jones had previously undertaken to post up on the Internet. While these data sets are of interest, my request was for the current version of the data set and I do NOT wish to withdraw my appeal of your ruling. Could you please advise me of Mr Colam-French's email so that I may submit further particulars of the basis of my appeal. In the mean-time, I would appreciate it if you reflected further about the apparent contradictions in your present refusal, given Dr Jones' previous provision of an earlier version of the dataset to me, the posting of two versions of the data set on your website, one from 1996 to the end of July 2009 and the other from 2003 to the end of July 2009 and the provision of a version to the US Department of Energy, where it has been posted on the internet since 1990. Regards, Steve McIntyre -----Original Message----- From: Palmer Dave Mr (LIB) [[2] mailto:David.Palmer@uea.ac.uk] Sent: Thursday, August 13, 2009 2:29 PM To: stephen.mcintyre@utoronto.ca Subject: Environmental Information Regulations request (FOI_09-44; EIR_09-03) - Appeal initial response Mr. McIntyre Further to your email of 24 July 2009, attached please find further information regarding your request received 26 June 2009. Feel free to contact me if you have any further questions. Cheers, Dave Palmer ____________________________ David Palmer Information Policy & Compliance Manager University of East Anglia Norwich, England NR4 7TJ Information Services Tel: +44 (0)1603 593523 Fax: +44 (0)1603 591010 Prof. Phil Jones Climatic Research Unit Telephone +44 (0) 1603 592090 School of Environmental Sciences Fax +44 (0) 1603 507784 University of East Anglia Norwich Email p.jones@uea.ac.uk NR4 7TJ UK ----------------------------------------------------------------------------