cc: "Mcgarvie Michael Mr k364" date: Fri, 20 Apr 2007 11:49:36 +0100 from: "Palmer Dave Mr \(LIB\)" subject: RE: FW: Freedom of Information request (FOI_07-04) to: "Phil Jones" Phil, I think what you suggest is fine; and the suggestion might do it.... We don't have to 'manufacture' information but as this is more of a 'sub-set' one could argue that we aren't manufacturing it at all... I had left this type of suggestion out originally but if you are happy to extract the information, I think it a good idea to make the offer... Cheers, Dave >-----Original Message----- >From: Phil Jones [mailto:p.jones@uea.ac.uk] >Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2007 5:00 PM >To: Palmer Dave Mr (LIB) >Cc: Mcgarvie Michael Mr k364 >Subject: RE: FW: Freedom of Information request (FOI_07-04) > > > Dave, > I've modified this letter with tracker. If you think we >shouldn't say > the offer at the end, then omit that sentence. > I've heard that requests for data are also being made in the USA > and also Sweden (for some tree-ring series with the latter). > > Cheers > Phil > >At 16:21 19/04/2007, Palmer Dave Mr \(LIB\) wrote: >>Phil/Michael, >>Here is the draft of the letter to Mr. Eschenbach for your review and >>comment.... >> >>Cheers, Dave >> >> >> >> >-----Original Message----- >> >From: Phil Jones [mailto:p.jones@uea.ac.uk] >> >Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2007 2:16 PM >> >To: Palmer Dave Mr (LIB) >> >Cc: Mcgarvie Michael Mr k364 >> >Subject: RE: FW: Freedom of Information request (FOI_07-04) >> > >> > >> > Dave, >> > I looked at the two requests whilst I was in Vienna earlier >> > the week. The one I've already sent is simple and a reply >> > should conclude the matter. >> > >> > For the other (Eschenbach) I can't produce a simple >> > list with the information he wants. As I said I can >> > produce a list of the sites we currently use. I think this >> > would take about an hour to do. It isn't as simple as it >> > sounds as I need to go through the list of stations in >> > the database and extract those not used - which involves >> > using 2 other files. >> > >> > What I can't do though is say what their sources are. I just >> > don't have this information for the same reasons as in the >> > other request. We didn't have the data storage resources in >> > earlier decades to keep this information. It is also likely that >> > quite a few stations are a mixture of sources. >> > >> > Also, he fails to realise that GHCN and NCAR are databases >> > and the ultimate source of all data is the respective NMS in the >> > country where the station is located. Even GHCN and NCAR >> > can't say where they got their data. They will say it >comes from each >> > NMS, but they know (and I do) that some comes from scientists >> > in the country. >> > >> > So, what he's asking for isn't possible - not for UEA (and not >> > for GHCN and NCAR as they are not the original source). >> > >> > So, if you want to draft a letter, use the above. I >don't want to >> > waste the hour's work, as he won't be satisfied with what >I produce, >> > because it won't include the sources. >> > >> > As I said earlier away next week, also the two weeks >after except >> > for April 30 and May 1. >> > >> > Cheers >> > Phil >> > >> > >> >At 17:14 17/04/2007, Palmer Dave Mr \(LIB\) wrote: >> >>Phil, >> >>Thanks for your prompt reply. Is the list of stations in a >> >format close >> >>to what Mr. Eschenbach desires? We are under no obligation to >> >>'manufacture' information but if we can make it understandable with >> >>minimum effort I think that would be to everyone's advantage. >> >>Specifically is the list of stations in any way linked to the >> >"the name >> >>and WMO number of each site and the location of the source >data (NCAR, >> >>GHCN, or National Met Service)" that he desires? >> >> >> >>If we have the data in this form, we have to produce it.... >> >> >> >>Cheers, Dave >> >> >> >> >> >> >-----Original Message----- >> >> >From: P.Jones@uea.ac.uk [mailto:P.Jones@uea.ac.uk] >> >> >Sent: Saturday, April 14, 2007 8:01 PM >> >> >To: Palmer Dave Mr (LIB) >> >> >Cc: Jones Philip Prof (ENV); Mcgarvie Michael Mr k364 >> >> >Subject: Re: FW: Freedom of Information request (FOI_07-04) >> >> > >> >> > Dave, >> >> > If all he wants is a list of the stations then I can >> >> > probably send him this. It his going to do him >> >> > absolutely no good to get this though. >> >> > I guess if he gets this information he will >> >> > at least be able to see that 98% of the data are >> >> > in the other archives. >> >> > I'm in Vienna next week, Geneva the on after this. >> >> > I'm not back in CRU for a week until the one after >> >> > May 11. He will just have to wait. >> >> > >> >> > There are not significant differences from >> >> > the GHCN nor the GISS datasets. Ask him how he >> >> > defines significant. >> >> > >> >> > Cheers >> >> > Phil >> >> > >> >> > >> >> >> Phil/Michael, >> >> >> As expected, Mr. Eschenbach is not satisfied with our >most recent >> >> >> letter. I guess the essential question is whether we have >> >> >the list of >> >> >> actual sites used for HadCRUT3, and if not, who does.... I >> >> >would like to >> >> >> avoid a formal appeal process here that will simply result >> >> >in where we >> >> >> are at now with the possibility of further appeal to >the ICO.... >> >> >> If the information as Mr. Eschenbach describes simply >> >does not exist >> >> >> here, we can report that and I will, if he still doesn't >> >agree, start >> >> >> the formal process of the appeal.... >> >> >> >> >> >> Cheers, Dave >> >> >> >> >> >> ________________________________ >> >> >> >> >> >> From: Willis Eschenbach [mailto:willis@taunovobay.com] >> >> >> Sent: Saturday, April 14, 2007 2:03 AM >> >> >> To: Palmer Dave Mr (LIB) >> >> >> Subject: Re: Freedom of Information request (FOI_07-04) >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Dear Mr. Palmer: >> >> >> >> >> >> Thank you for your response. However, it does not solve the >> >> >problem. In >> >> >> your original response you said: >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Your request for information received on 28 >> >September now been >> >> >> considered and I can report that the information requested >> >> >is available >> >> >> on non-UEA websites as detailed below. >> >> >> >> >> >> The Global Historical Climatology Network >(GHCN-Monthly) page >> >> >> within US National Climate Data Centre website provides one >> >> >of the two >> >> >> US versions of the global dataset and includes raw >> >station data. This >> >> >> site is at: >> >> >> http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/oa/climate/ghcn-monthly/index.php >> >> >> >> >> >> This page is where you can get one of the two US >> >versions of the >> >> >> global dataset, and it appears that the raw station data can >> >> >be obtained >> >> >> from this site. >> >> >> >> >> >> Datasets named ds564.0 and ds570.0 can be found at >> >The Climate & >> >> >> Global Dynamics Division (CGD) page of the Earth and >Sun Systems >> >> >> Laboratory (ESSL) at the National Center for Atmospheric >> >> >Research (NCAR) >> >> >> site at: http://www.cgd.ucar.edu/cas/tn404/ >> >> >> >> >> >> Between them, these two datasets have the data >which the UEA >> >> >> Climate Research Unit (CRU) uses to derive the HadCRUT3 >> >analysis. The >> >> >> latter, NCAR site holds the raw station data (including >> >> >temperature, but >> >> >> other variables as well). The GHCN would give their set of >> >> >station data >> >> >> (with adjustments for all the numerous problems). >> >> >> >> >> >> They both have a lot more data than the CRU have >(in simple >> >> >> station number counts), but the extra are almost entirely >> >within the >> >> >> USA. We have sent all our data to GHCN, so they do, in fact, >> >> >possess all >> >> >> our data. >> >> >> >> >> >> In accordance with S. 17 of the Freedom of >> >Information Act 2000 >> >> >> this letter acts as a Refusal Notice, and the reasons for >> >> >exemption are >> >> >> as stated below >> >> >> >> >> >> Exemption Reason >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> s. 21, Information accessible to >applicant via other >> >> >> means Some information is publicly available on >> >external websites >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> While it is good to know that the data is available at >> >those two web >> >> >> sites, that information is useless without a list of >> >stations used by >> >> >> Jones et al. to prepare the HadCRUT3 dataset. As I said in >> >> >my request, I >> >> >> am asking for: >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> 1) A list of the actual sites used by Dr. Jones in the >> >> >> preparation of the HadCRUT3 dataset, and >> >> >> >> >> >> 2) A clear indication of where the data for each site is >> >> >> available. This is quite important, as there are significant >> >> >differences >> >> >> between the versions of each site's data at e.g. GHCN >and NCAR." >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Without knowing the name and WMO number of each site and the >> >> >location of >> >> >> the source data (NCAR, GHCN, or National Met Service), >it is not >> >> >> possible to access the information. Thus, Exemption 21 does >> >> >not apply - >> >> >> I still cannot access the data. >> >> >> >> >> >> I don't understand why this is so hard. All I am asking for >> >> >is a simple >> >> >> list of the sites and where each site's data is located. >> >> >Pointing at two >> >> >> huge piles of data and saying, in effect, "The data is in there >> >> >> somewhere" does not help at all. >> >> >> >> >> >> To clarify what I am requesting, I am only asking for a >> >list of the >> >> >> stations used in HadCRUT3, a list that would look like this: >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> WMO# Name Source >> >> >> 58457 HangZhou NCAR >> >> >> 58659 WenZhou NCAR >> >> >> 59316 ShanTou GHCN >> >> >> 57516 ChongQing NMS >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> etc. for all of the stations used to prepare the HadCRUT3 >> >temperature >> >> >> data. >> >> >> >> >> >> That is the information requested, and it is not available >> >> >"on non-UEA >> >> >> websites", or anywhere else that I have been able to find. >> >> >> >> >> >> I appreciate all of your assistance in this matter, and I >> >> >trust we can >> >> >> get it resolved satisfactorily. >> >> >> >> >> >> Best regards, >> >> >> >> >> >> w. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ________________________________ >> >> >> >> >> >> on 4/12/07 5:22 AM, Palmer Dave Mr (LIB) at >David.Palmer@uea.ac.uk >> >> >> wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Mr. Eschenbach, >> >> >> Further to my letter of 15 March, I attach further >> >information >> >> >> regarding your email of 8 March and the appeal of our >> >decision of 13 >> >> >> February. Don't hesitate to contact me with queries >or concerns. >> >> >> >> >> >> Cheers, Dave Palmer >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> <> >> >> >> >> >> >> ____________________________ >> >> >> David Palmer >> >> >> Information Policy Officer >> >> >> University of East Anglia >> >> >> Norwich, England >> >> >> NR4 7TJ >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> > >> >Prof. Phil Jones >> >Climatic Research Unit Telephone +44 (0) 1603 592090 >> >School of Environmental Sciences Fax +44 (0) 1603 507784 >> >University of East Anglia >> >Norwich Email p.jones@uea.ac.uk >> >NR4 7TJ >> >UK >> >--------------------------------------------------------------- >> >------------- >> > >> > >> > >> > >Prof. Phil Jones >Climatic Research Unit Telephone +44 (0) 1603 592090 >School of Environmental Sciences Fax +44 (0) 1603 507784 >University of East Anglia >Norwich Email p.jones@uea.ac.uk >NR4 7TJ >UK >--------------------------------------------------------------- >------------- > >